Q&A Excerpt — Disrupting Ableism in the Workplace
Posted by Dean Askin | Reading time: 5:00 | Filed under Inclusive Hiring
Ableism happens in many forms. It happens in workplaces, in communities and in society in general, every day. Maybe you have lived experience facing it. Or maybe you’ve practised it, without consciously realizing it.
A new “ground-breaking” study called The Big Ableism Survey by Unlearning Ableism in the U.K., found that 94.3% of people who have a disability believe not enough is being done to combat workplace ableism.
And 96.8% think a lot more needs to be done, to combat ableism on the society level.
The Big Ableism Survey Policy Paper was published in July 2024 for Disability Pride Month.
In Episode 20 (Season 5) of You Can’t Spell Inclusion Without a D, we got a Canadian perspective on ableism in the workplace: Why it’s happening, its many forms, its impact and what can, and needs to be, done about it.
The two guests for this episode had many powerful insights on ableism.
Sree Nallamothu is the Co-Executive Director of Toronto Neighbourhood Centres. She’s also a documentary film-maker and an advocate for social change.
Fran Odette has more than 25 years of experience in disability advocacy, activism and education. She co-designed and co-teaches a critical disability studies course titled, Disability Discourse: The Experienced Life, at George Brown College in Toronto.
Their insights will get you thinking more consciously about ableism. Here’s an excerpt of the conversation with Dean Askin and guest co-host Dr. Jennifer Crowson, PhD.
JENNIFER CROWSON: What exactly is ableism? How would you define it, and what forms does it take?
Fran Odette: The definition that I’m going to give is from the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Ableism may be defined as a belief system…that sees persons with disabilities as being less worthy of respect and consideration, less able to contribute and participate or have less inherent value than others. Ableism may be conscious or unconscious, and may be embedded in institutions, systems for the broader culture of a society. It can limit the opportunities of persons with disabilities and reduce their inclusion in the life of their communities.
Sree Nallamothu: The approach that we’ve been taking together in the work we do within the Neighborhood Centres is a disability justice framework…an intersectional framework, which recognizes how ableism is connected to other forms of oppression…I think bringing a disability justice framework and a conversation around ableism is really important.
DEAN ASKIN: What kinds of things have you experienced that are ableist?
Fran Odette: I think that I have always experienced some form of ableism even as a young child, and definitely, as a young person, you know, being not quite seen as fully whole, or fully human…Assuming that when I’m waiting for Wheel-Trans, I must be out on the street, asking for money…I think really at the core of that whole experience is this belief that who I am, is defined by my impairment, or what people perceive as my impairment.
JENNIFER CROWSON: Why do you think ableism in the workplace is still happening?
Sree Nallamothu: I think it’s because it’s deeply embedded in the way we think about productivity…I think we need to think about how we can do things differently. And if we’re not making time for that, then we’re not changing the culture of our workplaces.
Fran Odette: I think people think they know what ableism is, but there’s a lot of literacy in a lot of different sectors around what that language means. And how part of our efforts to address and begin to eradicate ableism is to be really mindful of our language.
DEAN ASKIN: How frustrating is it that all this ableism in all of these forms, is still happening in 2024, and that it’s still difficult to have difficult conversations?
Fran Odette: I can’t say that there’s been a lot of change in terms of the impact that it does have, for folks with disabilities, to be always having to do the emotional labour, of responding to ablest incidents that might happen in a workplace or elsewhere…there’s always this feeling from my perspective, of having to be better, I have to be better than my non disabled peers, because I’m much more dispensable than they are.
Sree Nallamothu: I think…it really has to start with culture change, you can put all the rules and regulations in place, you can put all the sort of policies that address discrimination and harassment, all of that in place. But …until we make a culture shift, those things do not leave, in ways that are beneficial to everyone.
JENNIFER CROWSON: You work with organizations and have pointed out ableism that’s happening in those workplaces. What’s generally been the reaction when you’ve done that?
Fran Odette: I think we can imagine, what’s it like when someone points out that you actually aren’t accessible. And perhaps you have been presenting your company or your program as being uber-accessible…I go in always prepared that I will get some kind of defensive response. And…I then try to navigate through that, so that people will continue to stay open…around how things could be better.
DEAN ASKIN: What mindshift has to happen to stem workplace and societal ableism?
Sree Nallamothu: When we see it as the environment, we can change it, and change that narrative around…having…people need to overcome or be fixed or cured…all those sorts of ways in which we make it about individuals…when we make it about individuals, we absolve ourselves of having to do any of the work. But…when we… think about it as the environment and environmental barriers, those are things that we can change.
Fran Odette: I really try to get people to realize that disability is…everyone’s experience. That most people who move through the world, as non-disabled are only in that place temporarily. Because disability can occur through accident or illness, or aging.
Want more of Sree’s and Fran’s insights on workplace ableism in this conversation? Listen to or download Episode 20 of You Can’t Spell Inclusion Without a D.
Dean Askin is the Communications Strategist for the Ontario Disability Employment Network, and the Co-Host and Associate Producer of ODEN’s You Can’t Spell Inclusion Without a D podcast.